1970 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation Interview

Jim, what do young people worship today? What do they
Believe? What do they hang on to? What do they hope for?
I can't speak for young people, but probably a guess would be
The same things they've always celebrated, just kind of a
Joy of existence, self-discovery, freedom, that kind of thing
Well, there's always been a generation gap in every age
But the gap now seems to be much more of a definite
Cleavage. Young people today seem to feel and think
Differently. What do you think has brought this about?
Well, possibly it could have a strictly sociological basis
The so-called generation gap could be a result of just larger
Numbers of young people. I think it happened after World War II
I think it's something like over half the population of the
United States now is under 18 years of age, something like that
Politically and philosophically, the young people now
Seem to feel very definite ideas about the establishment
Old systems of governing people, and moral attitudes
Yeah. When I was in high school and college, the kind of protest
That's going on now was totally unheard of. At that time, to be a
Teenager, to be young, was really nothing. It was kind of a limbo
State, and I think it's amazing, just in the last five years, what's
Happened is young people have become increasingly aware of the power
And the influence that they have as a group. It's really amazing
Does it surprise you that there is so much revolt on the
Campuses of this country against Washington and its policies?
It really surprises me because, as I said before, when I was growing
Up and I was in school, that was totally unheard of. Students really
Had no power. But if you look back in history, it seems to bear
Out the fact that every revolution has started with students and
Spread to workers. I'm not predicting that there's going to be a
Drastic turnover in this country, but all the indications are there
Life does seem to become more and more involved and complex
We're becoming computerized and dehumanized in that process
That bugs me. I wonder how it bothers you and your generation
There does seem to be a trend toward a return to a kind of primitive
Outlook on life, a more tribal attitude, and I think it's a natural
Reaction to industrialization. But unfortunately, I think it's kind
Of naive because I think the future is going to become increasingly
Mechanized, computerized as you call it, and I don't think there's
Any turning back. It's just figuring out a way to survive and thrive
In that kind of society. I don't think there's any chance of going
Back. And look at it this way, too. The hippie lifestyle is really
A middle-class phenomenon, and it could not exist in any other
Society except ours where there's such an incredible surfeit of
Goods, products, and leisure time. I think that's the reason for it
Because the generations immediately preceding ours had World Wars
And depressions to contend with, and for the last 10 or 15 years in
This country, there's time enough and there's money enough to live a
Kind of a flagrant, outrageous
Lifestyle, which was impossible before
Jim, there's a line in your book of poems which reads
"The cleavage of men into actor and spectators is the
Central fact of our time." I think that's undeniable
But I wonder, hasn't it always been that way with society?
I suppose it has, but with mass media today, it becomes more
Immediately apparent. I think what I was concerned with in that book
Was the fact that most people feel completely void and helpless in
Controlling their own destinies or controlling the destiny of human
Life, andI think it's sad. More people should be involved. Rather
Than designating all these powers to a few individuals, I think
The average person, whatever that is, should be a part of it
Somehow. I think everyone feels that events are just going on
Without their knowledge or control. I think it's one of the
Tragedies of our time. I suppose it has always been that way
But now it's just become so obvious. Decisions are made for you in
Which you have no part of at all. I just lament the fact that so
Many people are content with living a very quiet, well-mannered
Orderly life when so many obvious injustices, I guess, are going on
And they just seem to ignore it somehow or not care at all, just
Let it happen without ever becoming involved. I think that's sad
Jim, relevant to your theory that people should get more involved
In life and thus enjoy it more, you have written a line of
Poetry which reads, "The spectator is a dying animal." Isn't
That a bit of a contradiction to what you've said previously?
No, it's concerned with that same split between the actor and the
Audience. To me, there's something incredibly sad about a bunch of
Human beings sitting down watching something take place. When you
Think about it, I love movies as much as anyone else, but the
Spectacle of millions and millions of people sitting in movie
Theaters and in front of television sets every night watching a
Second or third-hand reproduction of reality going on when the real
World is right there in their living room or right outside in
The street or down the block somewhere, I think it's a tool to
Somnambulize or hypnotize people into a kind of waking sleep
But I think the major influence in the next decade or so is going
To be the people... I don't know what you'd call them except
Maybe the connectors, the people who are able to assemble masses
Huge masses of people into one spot as we've witnessed in pop
Festivals in the last two or three years. The kind of people that
Can assemble huge crowds in one spot I think will be the major
Influences on mass culture in the next decade. I think the rock
Music enthusiasts have created probably some of the most exciting
Music and theatrical events on the planet. I think they're fantastic
Part of the generation gap is the difference in what people
Like in terms of music. Now rock and hard rock do seem to go
Hand in hand with the younger crowd, and some of us who are
A little older are confused and puzzled by that because we
Can't quite cotton on to this sound. Can you understand that?
You know, adolescence and early youth, the fires are burning fastest
Right, and your energy level is probably at its highest, and so it
Demands a kind of raucous, screaming type music. I'm 26
Now, and I'm getting more interested in jazz, to tell
You the truth. I can't even listen to the radio anymore
I like old blues cats and early rock 'n' roll and some
Other things, but frankly I find most of it really boring
This is something that distresses me a little bit. It
Seems that the young people like all the same kind of thing
Now I want more out of the young people than just that
Yeah, well, they're being programmed by their radios. The major
Radio stations, rock stations, only play 30 songs over and over
And over 24 hours a day, and it's been proven that what you hear
The most is what you like the most, so there's really no choice
Involved. Someone is programming it.So we are the victims of
Media. What everyone should say is, "The medium is the message
And the message is me." That's the answer. For everyone to...
You're asking for an answer. The answer is for everyone to stand
Up and say, "I'm me," and be fully aware of that fact, and let
Everyone else know it, that you are yourself, and express it
Jim, we're talking about communication, watching the box, etc., being
Victimized by the media. There's a sort of voyeurism in the air
Today, and you have a line which says more or less, "We're all
Afflicted with the psychology of the
Voyeur." That to me seems to be tragic
What it is is somehow life gets restricted to what can be seen
Rather than what can be touched or experienced physically
I don't know whether it's a natural civilized human fear of
Involvement, because touch can lead to a lot of... Touch
Physical involvement leads to all the real basic existential
Moments in life: sex, death, love. They have really nothing to do
With seeing, experiencing second hand. You have to get in there
And actually do it. There just seems to be some kind of natural
Civilized inclination to avoid contact with the nitty-gritty of life
We can't talk about life today and not talk about sex. Now
This confuses me because we have a so-called new morality
And I keep looking at it and trying to figure out what it is
I can remember when I was in high school and even college, which
Wasn't that many years ago, and sex was still in the Victorian age
It was very hush-hush. If you suspected a girl of being one of the
Ones that was doing it, it was like kind of a locker room
Conversations and all that, and I think that this new group of kids
That have come along have... I mean, sex will always be a mystery and
Will always have its hang-ups and strange things about it, but
They're much more free. It's just accepted as a fact of life
And not something to be snickered about in private behind
Closed doors and all that. I think there definitely is a new
Style. I think it was a necessary reaction to some kind of
Weird repression. I don't know how it started or when, but
It was totally unnatural, and I think that is one aspect of
The new thing that is happening that is completely beneficial
The repression of sexual energy has always been the grandest tool
Of a totalitarian system. If everyone was free in their sexual
Activity, how many people would show up for work? That's the basic
Problem, whether progress, the progress of civilization, the
Evolution of civilized culture, is really worth it. There have
Been some amazing accomplishments, beautiful accomplishments, but
The question is, is it worth it? Is it worth the repression? And
That's something everyone has to answer every second of their life
When you talk to young people, you go through them. You see them
All the time. Do you get the impression from them that they think
That life is worthwhile, that it's worth living, that it's a ball?
I'll tell you the damn truth. I don't know that many young people
I really don't. I usually hang out with my contemporaries
And I really don't have that much contact with young people
You're 26. You're young to me
Yeah, but I'm over the hill
Do you wish you were ten years younger?
Nah. I think generations now happen every year or maybe
Every month, rather than... It used to be ten years or
Something like that, but I think things are changing
So fast, there's a new generation every year at least
Jim, I don't think there's any topic that has sort of defined the
Young revolution more than the topic of war. I don't know anyone
Who's really in favor of war, but today we seem to have an entire
Young generation absolutely opposed to the very idea of it
Probably because they're the ones that always fight the wars. They're
The human fodder for the war machine, and there just seems to be
NoThere's no way around it, there's just no cause. I'm sure that the
Whole basis of the war going on now is economic, and I think young
People just got tired of being grist for the mill. But it's a funny
Thing. From the comfortable position of your TV set in your living
Room, war is very, no matter how horrible, it makes it very glamorous
. It's a great drama, life and death right there, a struggle, and
We're all infected from youth with little kids running around playing
War and playing cowboys and Indians or whatever. Somehow it's just
Ingrained in you from the beginning that there's something heroic in
Proving yourself in battle and all that kind of thing. The very hero
Concept seems to have changed in these past few years, doesn't it?
No heroes have come out of this present conflict. It's very strange
There's no support for it, hardly even in the press, and the young
People no longer worship warriors the way we used to. Right
Somewhere in you, you have to entertain these utopian concepts that
Life could work without all that struggle. Probably not, but
Something in us always entertains the fantasy that the world could
Run without war. Well, society has always needed, apparently, to
Worship heroes. Now, where are young people today looking for heroes?
What type of heroes? I think the new heroes will probably be
Political activists. In the 20s, it was sports figures, 30s and 40s
It was movie stars and World War II aces and all that kind of thing
And then the music figures became the heroes. I think the next heroes
Will probably be more intellectual sort--political activists and
Perhaps scientists and computer experts, people like that, people
That have an understanding and intellectual awareness and a knowledge
Of how things run, how modern society runs. They'll probably be the
New heroes. I think each generation supersedes the last one in
Intelligence and awareness, and I think there's been a giant step
Recently. The young people that I've seen in my travels around, while
They're very young and naive in a lot of ways, I think they have an
Incredible intelligence and awareness of events that far surpasses
The people I grew up with. I like to be pessimistic, but I think from
What I've seen, they're far better equipped to handle what's coming
Well, they'll have to be. Jim, in talking about life today, we have
The business of the sexual relationship, the relationship between
Men and women, and we all wonder how much it has changed, the role
Of the man in modern life and the woman in modern life. We even have
A horrible thing called unisex, which terrifies me. Do you think
There's that much of a difference in the style of life affecting
The man-woman relationship today? Well, when you look at history
It seems to be cyclical. There have been many periods in history
Where women were the major controlling influence in life, matriarchal
Societies and all that kind of thing. I think women are becoming
Increasingly important. It's a ridiculous thing to try and talk
About in such simple terms, but I think the influence of women is
Becoming more and more felt. I'm not sure I can expand on that
But I think you know what I mean. I think the unisex trip is really
A cop-out. What's happening is life is becoming more and more
Feminized. Really? I think so. That the male is now less masculine
Because he has no need to be very masculine? Yeah, that's true, and
Yeah, there's no frontier to conquer, and hunting and fishing and all
That. It's not a basic survival thing, and I think life is becoming
Increasingly feminized. And softer for man? Mm-hmm. Do you think
That's good? Sure. Why? Well, I think women have it all
Over men, really. I really think they have the right idea
Which is what? Well, ILess inclination toward
Intellectualizing things, and the need for formalizing and
Idealizing life, and just simply accepting it and living it
We tend to think of women as being starry-eyed and romantic, but if
You think about it, most of the
Romanticizers and the idealists are men
Very true
Do you think that will change?
Yeah, I think it's cyclical, but I think in a highly complex
And industrialized system, which we're engaged in, machines
Take the place of an earnest day-to-day tackling of survival
And when that disappears, then you get increased feminization
Well, you're a student of the cinema. You've studied cinema
At UCLA, and one of the things that you've written about
The cinema is this: "It is wrong to assume, as some have
Done, that cinema belongs to women. Cinema is created by
Men for the consolation of men." Would you enlarge upon that?
Well, who makes all the films? Who runs the projection booth?
It's somehow that masculine desire to dominate life rather than
Just accepting it and flowing with it, and I think that is
Responsible for the creation of films and a lot of other things
Men are dominant in the arts, aren't they, as
Writers, composers, actors, almost everything
Yeah, there are very few female artists
You think they're wise to keep out of it?
Well, yeah, I do, although it's a contradiction, because I'm
Totally hung up in the art game. But I think women have less need
To re-establish a connection with life because they are life